Dan: Well, hi, my name is Dan. I am 71 years old, and I am from Grandville currently.
Rick: My name is Rick. I too am 71. I did grow up in Grand Rapids on the northeast side and I was a product of, I guess I'll call it a pretty tight ethnic community between my parents, my mother's side being all Polish, my father's side being all Lithuanian. We sort of lived around Leonard and Plainfield is where I grew up and that was the two neighborhoods on the west side was Lithuanian neighborhood and east side was Polish, and we had tons of relatives all over very close by. I call it a relatively happy childhood, lots of friends, lots of family, lots of people, lots of opportunity. My parents were both working out of the house and so there was a lot of self-responsibility that had to be learned and observed early on even with a brother around. I found plenty of fun things to explore and do. And how about you, Dan?
Dan: Well, primarily grew up in the Lansing area. My parents ended up moving to Michigan Center until I joined the Navy right out of high school. Then that's pretty much where I spent my early life. For whatever reason, they moved a lot. We moved every two years. I never went to a school longer than two years. My dad just liked to move and find better places, I think.And my mom and my two sisters still live in Jackson and I have one sister that moved out to California. When I was 17, my younger brother was 16 at the time died from suicide. So that was not a good part, but both sides are pretty much German. We did a lot with my mom's side of the family, my dad's side of the family, not as much. My grandfather, my dad's side was very German, very stoic, didn't talk a whole lot. I'm the oldest in my family. I grew up with my sisters. I think it was a pretty good childhood also.
Rick: I graduated from the University of Michigan with a master's degree in urban planning. My desire, even from the time I was a kid, I was fascinated by municipal operations. I would follow garbage trucks down the road that were operated by municipal workers. Who by the way, that was sort of my first exposure to people of color because of who worked on the garbage trucks they didn't look like you and me. And the guys fixing the roads and so forth. That just fascinated me, and it sparked very early an interest in government, and I followed through with it from a curriculum standpoint. Once I got my degree, I wanted to work in a city where there was a diversity, and a variety of opportunities and interests and challenges. I interned at the Michigan Municipal League when I was in grad school. Quite honestly, it made a big difference in my having the financial ability to go to U of M. I met a lot of municipal officials. In my graduating year, there was a conference in Muskegon. I met people from Muskegon and Lord only knows Dan, why, but somehow, I made an impression. And even before I graduated, my gosh, they tracked me down and offered me a job. I was thrilled. I couldn't have thought of a better environment to start in. So, I stayed there for 15 years. The unfortunate thing is that the day after I started my boss, who of course I had interviewed with and barely had gotten to know, he had a heart attack. I was immediately thrust into positions of responsibility as I'm going to call it a stupid kid that had just graduated from school had to assume. And it just opened up a world of opportunity for me. Dan, if I can move on to your background, first off, how did you evolve into ultimately becoming an ordained minister?
Dan: I was interested in doing that probably since I was 12. You know, I was Catholic when I grew up and went to Lumen Christi High School in Jackson. That's where I graduated. Of course, went right in the Navy. I tried to become a permanent deacon in the Catholic Church. Being in the Navy, I was never in a spot long enough to actually go through a program which I understood diocese like in Virginia and other states I was at, they put you through the process. They kind of want to keep you there. You know, that wasn't an option for me. But eventually I was asked when I was assigned to North Chicago to the Great Lakes Base, the priest there asked me if I would be interested in going to the diaconate training. I did that for three years and was ordained in 1991 as a permanent deacon in the Catholic Church. When I moved out to Idaho in the Navy, that's how was stationed there, my ex-wife had left. I was basically a single parent of 10 children at that point. I could not remarry in the Catholic Church as a deacon. The only one that could approve that was the Pope. That wasn't happening at that time. So anyways, I kind of wandered over to the Episcopal Church and they were great, took me in and eventually in 1996, I was ordained an Episcopal priest. That part of my life was kind of something I felt I was being led to for a long time in some shape or form. Obviously still active duty in the Navy as a physician assistant, which I started in 1980 and did the clergy thing on the weekends, serving in various churches that needed somebody for a Sunday. Basically, did that up until 2019 and that's when I retired from the VA and wasn't ready to retire yet. I decided to go into the clergy business part-time, I guess. The churches I serve in are, can't afford a full-time priest. And I was very happy just to do like half time. So, I was okay with that. I was in Adrian (Michigan) for three years at a church there and then. My wife and I both like Grand Rapids area. So, we moved out here with the intent that I would probably retire and just do supply work again on Sundays but didn't work out that way. There was a church that needed somebody. So that's what I've been doing for two years now. I've worked since I was 14. I started at the Michigan Center and the Our Lady of Fatima church as a janitor. And I've worked ever since. Could you briefly describe your personal political values?
Rick: It's the ultimate respect of every human being that we encounter in our communities. And maybe that's your definition of social justice, but it's a key tenant of my life and maybe curiosity aspect. I don't care who the person is and where they come from, what their background is, what they look like. They're human beings. There's some element of beauty in that person. Again, having been so close, I guess, to so many political processes for so many years, we've gotten to the point with some elected people who won't talk to somebody else because they're an R or they're a D, which is ridiculous. And I've seen it, I've witnessed it, and it's very, very troubling. It drives me up a wall. It's very contrary to my beliefs. How about you, Dan?
Dan: It's shifted a lot for me. Being in government for so long, we weren't really allowed to certainly run for a political office or, I guess, push any specific candidate. So that's kind of how I grew up for so many years. And I just never had time to get involved in that because I was working so many hours per week. So, when I did retire from the VA, it opened up a lot of a new world for me. I mean, like I said, the social justice issues are important, but for the same reasons that you described, treating every person with dignity and respect. When I preach my sermons, I do mostly social justice stuff when I do talk about it, but not any particular candidate.
Rick: I physically worked a presidential campaign. I was on the road in Iowa as a college kid and a paid employee of a presidential campaign. I've worked state elections to some degree. I still am.
Dan: Did you actually run for an office or hold an office?
Rick: I ran for a school board as a result of my kids were in school and I reviewed it with my boss at the time because I knew it was going to be a pretty big commitment of time. I don't care what anybody tells you. I mean, even at a school board level, those people, they work hard. They put in a lot of hours. I was not elected.
Dan: I would have liked to have been more involved in the local politics, just in who was running, what they thought, what they hoped they would be able to accomplish. And you just kind of pay attention to that. It was easy for me just being in a place, maybe two years, it was easy just to kind of not be involved in that at all. I think what you did was wonderful to be involved locally to know what was going on. So, I kind of envy that. And I would encourage everyone to vote. In other words, don't not vote because you don't agree with anybody. Register to vote and vote.What's something that you would take with you from this experience?
Rick: One Small Step, it's an amazing experiment. And these kind of dialogues that you and I are having, if it were to take place a couple million times over, I mean, I think we'd be a very different sort of society. It's the value of conversing. It's the value of not sticking your head in the sand. The value of this experience is, hey, I'm not out here by myself. There are people like Dan and thousands of times over right here in West Michigan. I believe that if they have similar outlets and recognize that there are others like us that make them feel a little bit better and a little more assertive about doing exactly what you suggested is folks get out and vote. Democracy and government in all forms have a huge impact on our life. People who say it, ah, it doesn't impact me. They don't understand government. Certainly, there are a few out there who understand it to the degree that I do. This is a hopeful exercise and we can do more. How about you?
Dan: I think it's so important that people talk to each other in person, not via social media. I know we're Zooming, but we're still talking in person. I just think it was a great experience to do. It has been. It's been fantastic talking with you. Very much enjoyed it. We have a lot in common. We just have to talk about it.