Charity: I’ve always wanted to travel but never could really fund it. I have all these plans and ideas, and I told my husband, was like, when you retire, we are going places. I was like, and if you are not into that, I have a bunch of girlfriends who are also willing to go places. I got travel buddies.
April: Yeah.
Charity: And I just want to go.
April: Nice.
Charity: Yeah.
April: I would say that's the one thing I miss about, like, we hang out with our family so much. There are all of the holidays and then everybody's birthdays and then all the like kid milestones. Like I don't have any really good girlfriends. If I want to talk girl talk, it's basically to my sisters-in-law, which can get a little awkward if you want to talk about family stuff.
Charity: Right.
April: They are very open-minded people. We have some gay family members. They're very loving people, but they go to the same church. They have their kids at roughly the same time. They just have these very parallel lives. The two and the three of that they have are more like brothers and sisters. Their lives are very connected in a lot of ways that mine isn't. And so, I'm envious of you for that. Like I would love to be able to have girlfriends to hang out with.
Charity: Oh yes, it's great.
April: Have you heard of the app Marco Polo?
Charity: No.
April: It's a video messaging app. You for years, you keep in touch by calling people or emailing them or whatever. During the pandemic, Marco Polo took off. It's just leaving someone like a video message on your phone and then they watch it whenever they want. It's like a video text. And that has really helped deepen a lot of my relationships because a lot of my friends are not in Grand Rapids. So, I have been able to keep up with them by video messaging and just kind of keep those relationships going, which is really nice. Thankfully, my husband is he is Mr. Social. He's very intentional. So, I have forced interactions. Like last night, he's like, can you play pickleball with our church friends? And I was like, it's really hot. He's like, really would like you to go. Like we could use another person. So, I went, and it was really great. Like I got to connect with people besides pickleball. So, I'm grateful for him because he makes me do those things. And I know in West Michigan, too, it gets hard. I hear so many people say it's just hard for people to reach out and make friends outside of their set circle. So, like your set circle is like. the family that you're just, have a lot of life with them.
Charity: I wonder too, when you meet someone like at a conference or something, so not a work friend, not somebody that you see all the time, but you guys have a really good time, and you hang out through the whole day. And then I think there's this West Michigan blindness of I don't want to be too forward, or I don't want to be too pushy, or I don't want to push myself on somebody. But what is the next step to say like, hey, do you want to like meet for drinks or do you want to meet for lunch? I do feel like there is this sort of weird and maybe it's like a white woman thing. Like, I don't know if other communities have this or not? Or maybe it’s…
April: I think it's West Michigan.
Charity: Is it?
April: I had so many conversations with people who are implants and they're like, I have no friends except for other implants. It might be that thing where people just don't know how to broach that. One of my good friends in Detroit, she is that person who's like, let's hang out. We had fun, let's talk. And I would have been a person who more organically over time would have connected with her, but she's like, do this now. And now we're really great friends because she had the balls to say something. And I was like, okay. Yeah. So, I think it's a big West Michigan thing. And I don't know why. Do you work? Because that also kind of like…
Charity: I do. I work at a Schuler book.
April: You work at Schuler’s?
Charity: I do.
April: I love Schuler's! The bookstore?
Charity: Yeah. Yep on 28th Street.
April: That's my hot date spot with my husband and my kids. Yeah, we don't live far from there. So, you driving from Spring Lake?
Charity: Yeah. Well, we have one in Grand Haven. That's another independent but Shuler Books has four locations. This is the flagship one that the owners actually started and I'm the executive assistant sort of run the day to day. The owners Bill and Cecile are older now have grandkids want to travel more and do more. And so, they kind of leave the day to day running to us. And we all have like 20 years plus histories here. It still feels like a family business, which is really cool. I like that. You know, you also mentioned like that you were going to play pickleball with people at church. And so, do you feel like you still fit in? How do you bridge that change in values and then also still being part of a church in West Michigan?
April: I go to a church that says politics and Jesus aren't married. Jesus didn't marry politics. So, we don't do that at our church. So, there are people with different views than me, which can be hard when they're very strong opinions about things. But like from the pulpit and stuff, like our church during the 2016 election, there's a lot of people who are like, hey, you need to be preaching politics from the pulpit. And our pastor's like, no, we preach Jesus from the pulpit. And so, we've lost a lot of people who are members of our church. But yeah, our church is basically, says, whatever your political views are, they're yours, exercise them, and you can talk about them, but this is not part of the front-facing mission of the church. So, it's not really a big part of our church, which might be unusual because a lot of faith-based places seem to have become politicized for whatever reasons. So, do you go to a church and what's that experience? Is there a political bend in it?
Charity: I think I agree with you that there are a lot of churches have gotten really political, but I feel like it happened more in the conservative and thus Republican and ultra-Christian national. It feels to me like a lot of churches started down that road and then there's that. I do go to; it's like a non-church in Grand Haven. It started out as part of the Reformed Church, like 200 years ago, and they have evolved and now it's a spiritual community that's non-denominational. You could be atheist, and you can go there.
April: Oh, that's so cool.
Charity: It's great. I love it. They don't preach a doctrine, and they don't work from a doctrine. We use all different sources. So, you'll hear Gandhi and Martin Luther King and Jesus and St. Thomas Aquinas, and you'll hear all these different people are where they get the lessons. But they do have five values. We believe in the democratic process. We believe that there is dignity and worth in everyone. I feel like I tried to live to The Golden Rule in my everyday life then if I were to attribute my behavior to a set of values. Politically, I would say I lean very liberally, but it's because most of the really hot button issues, like I can't make that decision for somebody. You know, if you preach the Sermon on the Mount at some of the conservative churches, they're like, why are you talking that liberal political bull crap? I'm from West Michigan, I can't swear. It's like, this is the Sermon on the Mount. Like, how is this political?
April: It's in your holy book, people.
Charity: Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I probably would very much like a church like what you go to. I just can't confine it to specifically Jesus. I want for someone to feel that love and that happiness and joy in their heart that they get from Jesus as much as they want it. I just don't want them to have to force it on me. To me, that feels like The Golden Rule, and yet for somebody else, like they might feel like I am doing unto you as I want done unto me. Like I would want somebody.
April: Yeah.
Charity: So, it's almost like a different interpretation of the same phrase.
April: I think I feel the same way. I don't really have a right to tell people what to do unless I'm okay with them also telling me what to do. So, when people like, you know, we need to do Jesus as the president, you know, Donald Trump and Jesus are working together as a presidential thing. I'm like, okay, if you're cool with that. Are you cool with someone being like, I'm Gandhi's person and I'm going to tell America now we're going to live Gandhi's way because there's a lot of people in America who want to live that way. And we've decided if you're okay with someone calling the shots in one way, you got to be okay with everyone having equal rights to call the shots like that. What if 10 years from now, you're no longer in the majority. If you think it's okay to tell people what to do, then you have to be okay with someone else changing the way you carry out your beliefs and values. And I would never want mine. impinged upon. How were you raised then politically?
Charity: I have five uncles and an aunt, and I remember very lively discussions back and forth. They were Democrats, but you know, we had the more conservative. My dad and one of my uncles and then the other three were more businessmen. And my dad and his brother were in trade and so you had like, yes, unions are a good thing, but as a businessman, you know, unions suck because of this. And like, as a union worker like management sucks because of this. And I remember thinking, ooh, they're like really mad. And then they play euchre for like hours on end.
April: Yeah.
Charity: And they're just brothers. So, like, I understand now you meant there's lively debate and discussion in family and you won't be boxed in. So, April what's something that you will take from this experience?
April: It's okay to take risks. Take the risk always because you just never know how it's going to turn out and you can always change the outcome later if you want to do something else. But don't be afraid. And this is what I'm trying to teach my husband because he still needs to look for other work. Like he's done at this company, I can tell. And he doesn't want to take the risk because he's like, what if I go to a place that's not as good? And was like, that is a risk you have to take in order to grow as a person, you have to take risks. So, I guess I'm trying to emulate that for him and my kids of doing the hard things, regardless of the outcome.
Charity: Yeah. I just keep having to remind myself, like, I can do hard things. I don't like them, and I don't have to like them. And I feel like I have a new friend. There's somebody out there that I can talk to and if I need to, I can reach out again.
April: Yeah. Yes. Totally. Yeah. So, let's not do the West Michigan thing and let's do the thing where we're like, let's hang out.
Charity: Right.
April: I’ll call you sometime. Yeah.
Charity: I could meet you at your work. We could have coffee.
April: Sounds awesome. I'll buy you lunch.
Charity: I would love that.