Michelle: What made you want to have this conversation today?
Henry: Well, I didn't necessarily want to. I'm a very social person. I have a lot of friends that I strongly align with, but I also have a lot of friends that I respectfully do not agree with. And recently I put something on Facebook that some of the friends that I strongly do not align with, put a challenge out there with this link that I should grow my conversations and look at other ways of viewing worldly events. So, I more or less did it to appease them, just to say that I'm not just going to sit in the corner and be mad about having a disagreement but rather pursue it and see what happens.
Michelle: That's a huge step. That's great. And I'm the same way. I want to hear things, how people got to where they are and why and how they can educate me too.
Henry: Good. What brought you to the west side of the state from the east side?
Michelle: I actually put myself through college as well. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree in public relations and advertising at Grand Valley State. I started in physical therapy, but they were only accepting 40 people and bio-chem was really hard. So, I picked something more creative and I'm a visual person and I am a communicator, and I like to solve problems. So, I ended up going that route. So, I just never moved back.
Henry: The other thing that interests me is the Universalist Unitarian. I don't believe I have ever met someone that I knew to be as such. So, I'm curious how that works.
Michelle: Basically, they believe in deeds, not creeds. They welcome all people from all backgrounds, ethnicity, sexual orientation, political beliefs, and they help you follow your own path and the meaning of life. And there are Christians that go there too. There are all different types of people, Jewish people, Catholic people. It's kind of a build your own path or learning from others. I'm probably not describing it very well, but that's my best definition. I have twins. They're 17 and my daughter has been going to a church in Rockford, and it's been an interesting conversation with her, her belief system and what I think I believe. And I'm just very curious person. I see you went to a Christian school and not having that background from a small child. I became more curious and tried to figure things out. For instance, in the Bible, like, well, what does this mean? And how do you know that literally meant that? And did you know only men were allowed to write chapters of the Bible and it was over a thousand years that it took to write it. How do we know it's accurate? I'm just a super-curious person that always wants to analyze and think and I'm a firm believer in scientific fact. So, I not having that background that you did, I kind of struggled with just blindly taking it all and believing it all. So, I just like to analyze and read and try to find truth in all of it, I guess.
Henry: That's interesting. If I could ask a little more on that? If you're fact based, which I am too. really doesn't appear to me, subject to being wrong obviously, but it doesn't appear to be as much fact-based as I'll say more of an emotion and a feel-good type of belief and practice. Would that be fair?
Michelle: It could be because it is, it's open to interpretation and what your experience and what your thought is on religion and interpersonal relations. So, I would say that's pretty accurate. And as somebody who grew up with kind of in between, it was almost like, I guess my experience with Christians and not all, I don't want to be stereotypical, but it was very black and white and you have to believe this or you're going here or you have to do this and women have no power and that kind of thing. The dogma of you have to believe A, B, C, and D in order to get E and nobody knows for sure or for certain what the outcome is and what it is. I just like to continue to explore and learn and hear other people's point of view. So, I'm super curious of what your beliefs are as far as religion. Are you grateful you grew up in a Christian school system or are there things you felt you've missed out on or are you satisfied?
Henry: I do not feel I missed out on anything; I’ll say that. I think that where I went was a very conservative upbringing and schooling. I guess my viewpoint is, and I kind of relayed this with my daughters too is I'd rather start out on the ultra-conservative side and then you can loosen up from there as opposed to if you're not and you're into a lot of whatever…I can't even think of examples, but it's tougher to move the other way to be a conservative and to feel the faith that I have in Jesus and in God that the end result is going to Heaven. I do believe firmly that there is a heaven for the chosen ones from God and I believe that there is eternity there and I also likewise believe that there is eternity in hell. I do believe that in the Bible if you read many different aspects of it there's a lot of do's and don'ts which are more, I'll say factual black and white. If you do these things you will go to hell or before you die, you better make sure to make it right with God and beg forgiveness of having committed those sins. The schooling and the upbringing, I still received the full academics of the math and language and all of those disciplines. At the same time, a lot of it was taught in a Christian and applied in a Christian manner. I think that it made for a good foundation for how I act. I do have firm belief, and I also believe I want to portray my life and how I act in a way that is God fearing, but also God pleasing. T
Michelle: Tell me a little bit more about the beginning part of what you said that it's easier to start very conservative and then slowly move further the other way. What is it that makes you feel like you have to stay way over there before you can move if you want to move that is?
Henry: I'll say for an example, I go to church every Sunday, twice on Sunday, actually, in the morning and at night. My parents showed me the logic of why and the disciplines of everyone else might be going to the beach Sunday afternoon or night and by having the conservativism of and the discipline in place of, no. It is Sunday. It's God’s Day. It's a day of rest, it's a day of not doing all the worldly things, just helped me maintain my faith and my practice of going to church to learn more about God and to hear the Word. I'm doing the same with the kids where there are times where it's a lot easier to say, ah, let's not go to church today. If you get into a habit of doing that, you lose focus of what the priority is. I'd rather error on the side of having the discipline to go twice as opposed to making it as an exception.
Michelle: I actually agree with you that some form of faith or religion helps guide you and gives you good life lessons and guides of how to live your life and how to be a good person. I think Universalist Unitarians would agree with you on that as well. Sometimes I struggle. For example, in the Olympics, everybody had a big to do about the artwork at the table. They thought it was the Last Supper, but the artists intended it to be like the opening Greek ceremonies that they used to have when it first started hundreds or thousands of years ago. And I thought to myself, well, from what I've read about Jesus and understand, wouldn't he invite everybody to his table and love them? Not shunned certain people and welcome others if they all have a good heart and they're all kind and they all want to help each other. So, things like that I struggle with. And again, I think that's because I grew up not necessarily having a specific black and white framework. It was more being good person or including people versus here's my belief system, if you don't believe it too, you're out. It just as somebody who wasn't exposed to lifelong like you were, it's hard for me to wrap my mind around Jesus not loving just everybody.
Henry: Right. In the Bible it says, he does not like the sin but loves the sinner. Therefore, everyone is welcome there to learn more about God, to grow your relationship with Him, and to find out through His teachings. There are things that are right and there are things that are wrong, specifically one of them with the Olympic thing. I don't know what their original intention was, but it did appear that it was a mockery of the Last Supper. I can see where a lot of people were offended by it. I did not watch it. I heard about it. I can't influence it, so I just kind of moved on with my life and I'm not going to let that dwell with me but I'm also not going to support that activity either.
Michelle: I'm kind of the same way and don't worry sweat the small stuff just what matters to you and what's important to you. What's something you'll take with you from this experience?
Henry: That it actually went better than I anticipated. So, I really didn't know what to anticipate. I thought it went good.
Michelle: Me too and I'm actually thankful because I'll take away that we're more similar than we think. When it comes down to it, we all want the same thing for each other and our families. And we just have a different way of getting there maybe or a different route. But I think ultimately, we're more similar than we think. I'm grateful to have met you and I thank you again for doing this because it sounds like it was a pretty brave move for you. So, I'm glad I got you.
Henry: Thank you. Likewise. I appreciate you.