Cheryl: I grew up in a very conservative family, we tended to always vote Republican. So that model of the government or whatever was politics was really all that I ever saw growing up, you know, just the Republican style of government, basically. And I didn't know a lot about it. I just thought, oh, that's the only one. Yeah. So, I remember, you know, learning about government structure and stuff in high school and kind of being a little baffled by it, like, oh, okay. And seeing, oh, Democrats are more social services and government provides everything. And Republican was a good model of how the government should be, right? So, I didn't really question it. I didn't really think about it. I just said, okay, I'm going to do that too, because I don't really know anything different.
Tina: Yeah.
Cheryl: But I did find over the years that I was leaning more towards social services and wanting to provide for people who don't have as many privileges. I guess part of it too is my interest in history. And so, seeing Franklin Roosevelt and Teddy Roosevelt and thinking, oh, they're awesome. I would support that. And so, I found myself wondering a lot more, especially in recent years, like maybe I have this wrong? Maybe it would be better to have more support for people who are in need or… And I'm still trying to form those thoughts and see what are my beliefs about this. Because I was also taught you don't just hand things out to people either. And so, the model of, you know, I don't want to give you all the fish, but I want to teach you how to fish has always been something that I heard growing up. And, you know, in my church, too. I was just thinking the churches that I've been involved with have had tutoring programs or the Saturday food program where we would provide food for people who didn't have any, but also that Saturday food program, they could pay something. So, it felt like it wasn't just a handout. They could choose what they wanted out of the supplies. I felt tugged in different directions recently, especially, you know, with the strange elections we've been having recently. And I'm just questioning where do I fit on this continuum?
Tina: Yeah, for me, it was I grew up on the south side of Chicago. So, I didn't realize what an unusual setting I grew up in. It was very diverse. I went to public schools and all of my schools were I didn't really understand what the word minority meant because my schools were maybe 20% white, you know? And so, I just, I didn't really get what that word meant. And where I grew up, I think had a fairly liberal leaning to it. And so that was all I knew, you know? And so, my high school, we had a very high graduation rate and a very high secondary education rate. It was both just how I just thought the world was and it was a shock to find out that actually the world is not even remotely like that. And I didn't, it almost was a disservice to me because I didn't know how much work there was to do for social justice issues. To me it looked like it's all done. So, my political views really got shaped a little bit later in life. Our family always voted Democrat, I just figured just like you, I was like, oh, well that's just what you do, you know?
Cheryl: Yes, okay.
Tina: It really wasn't until I was much older and could reflect back like, oh, you know something, I didn't really think about this, but my school was only 20% white and yet in all of the honors classes, it was like 80% white, how could that happen? You know, like why was that? Like it didn't occur to me to think about it, which I guess was in and of itself sort of a wake-up call for me. And so, when I got introduced to this idea of, and this kind of goes to what you were saying, that sort of teaching people to fish rather than giving them a fish, this idea of working with people instead of doing things for them or to them.
Cheryl: Right.
Tina: And I think it's the doing things to them that sort of defines what we think of as the very extreme right and doing things for them defines the very extreme left. And those things don't really seem very helpful to anybody.
Cheryl: Right.
Tina: And how do you find that happy medium where you're doing things with them? Where you give them the supports that they need, but you also recognize their own dignity and their own ability to do things for themselves. So that's sort of where my politics and own sort of ethics have intersected, I guess.
(Music bridge)
Tina: I’m Jewish and when the attacks by Hamas on the Israelis happened, I mean that was really, really frightening to me.
Cheryl: Yeah.
Tina: And then when Israel began its offensive on Gaza, I was not in favor of that. I just felt like just politically it wasn't going to achieve their ends and all it was going to do was create sympathy for the very people that just attacked them. Which I think I was kind of, I think I kind of was right about that. But my children, they're very much pro-Palestinian and they were using words like genocide and calling the Jewish people of Israel colonizers. And like to me, that was so shocking. I'm pretty liberal and I, you know, and I didn't agree with what Netanyahu was doing and I'm not at all supportive of any of the stuff he's been doing, but. but I just couldn't quite make that leap. And I feared that was going to be our family moment where we couldn't talk about stuff and it was going to cause this huge rift. I mean, it didn't. So, like I was just together with all of my sisters and some cousins, and I have a daughter in Chicago. I wanted her to come and be with us too. But then I was a little bit afraid of the conversation that would happen. And so. Oh, well, we'll just have it just the cousins.
Cheryl: Yes. That's so true. We found that, you know, sometimes it's the politics that we just can't go to some topics. But you know, going back to the pandemic too, that was also a time where there were such different views of what is okay and what is not okay, that that really made a rift in our family too. We just couldn't do certain things together.
Tina: Right. Yeah.
Cheryl: What was the biggest concern you had coming into this and meeting me? And did it change?
Tina: I honestly was concerned about my getting combative with you.
Cheryl: Oh,
Tina: I didn't think…I'm not a combative person, but I just, I was afraid that we would start talking about things that even with all the training I have and with, and knowing what this was supposed to be about, I was afraid I would try to convince you to come over to my side. But the fact of the matter is what this did do is validate what I came in here to prove to myself in the first place, which is we really are not so far apart. We have plenty of common ground. I'm sure if we talked about the environment, you and I would be on the same page. We might even have the same diet. You know? Yeah. So, I think I had to have a little more faith in myself. And I've just really enjoyed doing this. I hope you have too.
Cheryl: Yes, definitely. I was nervous about just having a conversation about politics actually. So, I've been reading up for weeks about what's going on in politics. I would be able to talk about it more. I find that I easily have conversations with people, even people I don't know. In fact, sometimes I feel more comfortable talking to people I don't know than people I am related to or connected to. So, for me, it was more practicing talking to people and having a conversation about things going on in my life. You know, inviting people to the table inviting conversation instead of shunning the conversation.
Tina: Yeah. I mean, I suppose I probably disagree with you politically on some things, but just from what I've just learned about you, I certainly do have respect for you.
Cheryl: I think the most difficult thing recently has been disagreeing with my husband politically. That's only been in the last couple of elections because I had a really hard time choosing who to vote for this time because I did not agree with him. And I had always voted the same as my husband, but I felt like I could not in good conscience vote for Trump. So, I think that's been difficult. I mean, we still respect each other. We still love each other, you know, all of that. In my research recently about politics to get ready for this interview, I'm a lot more pointed, I think, in my conversations and challenging him on his beliefs sometimes.
Tina: Yeah.
Cheryl: And I think he feels uncomfortable with that. I think I do too.
Tina: Yeah.
Cheryl: And so eventually we back down. Okay. Let's just talk about the weather for a while.
Tina: Yeah, right. Yeah, you have to kind of build up the discomfort muscle, I guess.
Cheryl: Yes. Yeah.