Jeff: What made you want to do this interview today, Chris? You got an answer to that?
Chris: I am so aware that we're all going to have to live with each other after November. And for all the influences that seem to be polarizing and all of us living in our own silos, I need to do the work of paying attention to people who come from different places and model listening, being a civil person. I think if I'm expecting our political leaders to do that. I got to do it. I'd love to know from your perspective, Jeff, what made you be open to this interview?
Jeff: Yeah, I think not so dissimilar from you. I find over my life, which is slightly shorter than yours, I don't know if that makes me a winner or a loser, but I've always been drawn to these kinds of conversations. I mourn the loss of them. I think we used to have them a lot more often when I was younger, whether with older folks or peers. And so just really desiring, same motivation, the expectation of we're all neighbors at the end of the day. You're calling in an hour away from me, but okay, we're not so far apart from each other. To just have a chance to share what parts of your life got you to the point where most people's life makes sense to them.
Chris: I'm fascinated with you living in China. Being a minority. I've sought out some moments in my life on purpose to be a minority just to consider another view. I'd love to know if the world gets smaller for you by living in China for those three years.
Jeff: 100% for sure on that last one. You can't help but have the world get smaller. What was nice for us was that we were in a small town in China, which means they only had six million people. It's like bigger than Chicago and like it's a second-tier city in China. But in that city, we were just north of North Korea and very few foreigners living in the city. So, the people who are there who are not Chinese very naturally rallied around each other. So, you would be in the store, and you'd see another person who's not Chinese, whether African or European, doesn't matter. You would stop them and say, I don't know you. And I thought I knew everybody in this town who's not Chinese. Oh yeah, I just came yesterday. So being a minority, I mean, you are a strong minority. Now it's, I would say less to be celebrated in terms of you're also an esteemed minority. And so, from the Chinese second tier city, a foreigner coming in from the U.S. as a professional engineer, boy that's... you're like in a zoo where they come and look at you like you're a strange creature, but it's this sense of, wow, we've never seen anything like this, and it's glorious. As opposed to, you're not one of us. There's not a derogatory, derisive, pejorative view. It's a very esteemed view. And so, yeah, I'm a minority, but you're a celebrated minority. So, you can't say, I know what it's like to be a minority. No, you don't. It's still an esteemed minority.
Chris: Letting myself be in some settings that stretched me. And I chose, I chose to leave the South to go to Boston for graduate school, which was hard and lonely and kind of introduced me to the global village in some ways. It was to be in a metropolitan area that had folks from all over. Also, while there, you know, my faith as a Christ follower is very important and, you know, to hear, oh, different people put that together differently. You’re from a Greek Orthodox Church, wow, how you put things together? Or a large African American congregation that's just full of joy and dancing and all that. And I think faith-wise too, I intentionally sought out an education that was really going to push me around social justice and had me just hear voices that I've never heard before. And it was also a chance, the schools had a real open and interdisciplinary process, and I attended some classes where I was the only white guy. I was kind of intrigued with that discombobulation, a little bit of discomfort, and came out of the experience thinking, there are people who go through most of their life as a minority. This is good for me to experience this.
Jeff: At least for a small window, as opposed to every day, all day, every day.
Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I've never lived in another culture, I mean, where no one else is speaking English, more like what you were talking about. Who has been the most influential person in your life, Jeff, and what would be one thing that they taught you? Who would appreciate this?
Jeff: My dad was educated but wasn't in a professional role. And my dad had developed, which is probably part of his ability to do that, even though I'm educated, go take that role. He didn't have a particularly strong sense of, I would call it dignity maybe, or he could care less. So, he got it into his head one day that he thought it'd be kind of fun to just go around the golf courses and collect pop cans in the state of Michigan. For those who don't know, you get 10 cents for a pop can. He would collect these cans, bring them to the store, take all that money, put it in an account. And at the end of the year, whatever money he had saved, he would donate to a cause that he was supportive of. And so, in the seventh grade, now the story, I won't name the person, came up to me after class, 12 years old, right? It's like, hey, Jeff, uh, just curious, are you embarrassed about your dad? Ooh, that's a…that's a pointed question for a 12-year-old. And she didn't mean it hostilely like, you're stupid and your dad's stupid. Just, it was an honest question. Like I, I think about my dad, this was a her, she thought of her dad. Her dad was very dignified, had a good job, good family, good everything. And I seem like a reasonably normal guy, but my dad was a nut job. Like, are you okay with your dad being crazy? And I had to think about it. And I don't know if I gave her an answer immediately, but through that, really recognizing my dad gave me a huge gift that I had a model of. You live your life, son. Like you want to collect pop cans at a golf course. Like, who the frick cares if somebody thinks that looks dumb. Like that doesn't mean anything about you. That means something about them. Like you do you.
Chris: I'm curious, is that you as an adult thinking back on the things you admired about your dad, because 12-year-olds generally think your dads don't know what they're talking about.
Jeff: It was the 12-year-old self, which then matured into the Later adolescent and now adult, I can look back clearly and be like, okay, where I am as a function of that. At the time, it was more, okay, where am I going to be? I don't know. But am I ashamed of my dad? No, no, I'm not because I can see that my dad can do things that your dad can't do. I don't know what your dad wants to do, but he's only allowed to do what is socially acceptable to do. My dad can do whatever the heck he wants, short of the law and ethics. And so, I recognize that even as an adolescent to say, I want to live my life that way. I want to be free to just, if I think it, I'm going to do it as long as it's legal. Fast forward to today, I lead a team of folks who do innovation stuff in an automotive space. What's the primary job description of that? Being able to tell people who have done things the same way their entire lives, that you've got a better way. Here's a different way to do it that's better. And everybody says, I hate your way. I, this is the way we've always done it. Go away. That doesn't bother me at all. Like, okay, you can say that all you want, but I know there's ways better. And so, it's been a part of my life throughout my life at this point. So, Hey Chris, uh, who's been the most influential person in your life and what do they teach you?
Chris: I'm going to stretch the role a little bit and give an episode of one person and then tell the relationship. One is a professor in seminary, Elizabeth Bettenhausen. I had this internship the third year of my degree of bringing forums around social justice to be talked about. I tried to have this piece around how minority perspectives view theology. There were a whole lot of minorities from around the world in our seminary in Boston, but I just went to the black seminarians, and I didn't think to talk to the Hispanic ones and some Asian ones and things that would have had to be kind of a bigger mix, a bigger conversation. And it kind of blew up in my face, the folks who were not consulted said, we would have liked to have had input on this program, geez, blah, blah. And I remember going to this professor saying, I think I want to quit the internship. I've screwed up. I didn't do it right. I'm trying to plan this big multi-ethnic festival thing. And she said, huh, well, if you were able to change one person's thinking, don't you think the internship was worthwhile? I get chills even just bringing it up. This is like 45 years ago. And it was one of those things where you're desperate enough looking for some guidance and someone wise and grounded and settled says something that's not really a full paragraph. It was just asking me a couple of questions and it changed the way I was approaching that. Yeah, maybe the whole thing of trying to be a good influence or staying curious in this world is impacting one encounter, one relationship at a time. So that was a big deal to me, and it has influenced the way I approach my career.
Jeff: I've loved this conversation. And the thing I'll take away from it is I had no idea what the answer to your questions were going to be. You self-identify as a left leaning liberal progressive, but man, I didn't expect that. I didn't expect it's like, oh, okay. Like you have nuance, you have thoughtfulness to, I generally think these things, but I'm considering everything on its own merits. Like I'm not going to think something just because my team says that's what I'm supposed to think, which I find fabulously encouraging that a man of your young years has no interest in just kind of following the checklist and saying, well, how does that fit with my values? Like, what am I going to believe about that? I found that very refreshing.
Chris: It's reinforced for me the importance of listening without thinking of what I'm going to say during that moment of listening. I think I really tried to in this hour. listen to your story, Jeff, whether we ever meet each other again. I appreciate what I hear about you as a person trying to make sense of the world and be a person living out your morals. And it was easy for me to just, just listen and not feel like I need to arrive at a place or prove something to you or help convince you of something. And that's kind of liberating.
Jeff: Thanks Chris.