Dave Isay: We at StoryCorps became very concerned about what's called affective polarization, toxic polarization in the country five or six years ago. So, this is not a concern about arguing with each other, which is fine and healthy. It's about what happens when we start to see each other as less than human. And we were talking about Germany before the cameras started rolling. Slavery, Nazi Germany, Hitler called Jews, Untermenschen, less than human, Rwanda. I mean, you see this in Russia and the Ukraine now, you know, referring to people as not human, extremely dangerous. And the rate of toxic polarization in the U.S. across the divides has shot up. I mean, you've probably seen the statistics. There's some. You know not small percentage of Republicans and Democrats who feel that the country would be better off if everybody in the opposite party was dead. And that is extremely dangerous. Democracy can't survive in a swamp of mutual contempt. And you know we have real concerns and I think that a lot of people have these concerns now about the future of our democracy. You know what are we going to do if we see our neighbors as our enemies. You know there are polls now that show that you know we fear our neighbors more than our traditional. you know international adversaries the Russians and the Chinese. It's just gone off the charts and it's out of control. So, we develop this intervention which we tested for four or five years called One Small Step which basically put strangers from across the political divides together. They meet for the first time not to talk about politics but just to get to know each other as human beings under the premise that it's hard to hate up close. Our dream is to scale this thing across the country and to convince the country that it’s our patriotic duty to see the humanity in people with whom we disagree. We were talking about…you had mentioned that I had said in another interview a while ago about this multi-billion dollar, hate industrial complex. I mean, there are in media and social media, you know there are billions of dollars being made getting us to hate each other. And you know, I’m very aware that One Small Step is a complete David & Goliath moonshot, but we got to try something because the only thing we know for sure is that if this culture of contempt in the country wins all of us are going to lose. So, we're taking a crack at it.
Patrick Center: It's interesting you talk about that industrial complex. I was in commercial broadcasting for years and the consultants would come in and say everybody loves the roller coaster ride. Right. You're talking about fear, hatred. Same thing as that roller coaster ride of what's coming around the bend next.
Dave Isay: Yeah.
Patrick Center: Humans tend to thrive off of that.
Dave Isay: Yeah.
Patrick Center: But I don't understand you. You mentioned polling.
Dave Isay: Yeah.
Patrick Center: Americans approve of Congress 20 percent disapprove 75 percent, and yet somehow Americans are identifying who they are through their politics.
Dave Isay: Yeah. Yeah, that indicates, you know, loss of trust in institutions in general. I mean our profession journalism is has even lower numbers 16%, 17% from 80% in the 1970s, you know, and it's all this fear and doubt that's being put into us. And you know, I think that roller coaster is hardwired into us. I mean, we are not that far away from who we were when we were in the caves. And you know, we are wired to be very responsive to threats. Obviously, that's how we survived, you know, there's a lion over there, there's, you know, something, a wolf that's going to eat you, you know, not safety. So, when people get our threat mechanism rolling, which is easy to do, you're going to pay much more attention to that than stories of who we actually are as Americans. When we've had 650,000 people participate in StoryCorps, the facilitators who go on the road. and record, their present for these interviews. They serve a year or two with StoryCorps and they're with you and your dad when you make that recording. They call it bearing witness. And every one of them, when they come off the road, if you ask them what they've learned, they give a version of the Anne Frank quote that people are basically good. And maybe there was some sort of selection bias early on, but when you get into the hundreds of thousands, there's got to be a truth to it. So that is not what we see when we watch TV, but it is the truth. You know and I think that, you know, we also know from polling, and we do a lot of you know we're a hard organization, but we have a lot of science behind what we're doing with One Small Step. You know most of the country falls into there's a group called More in Common that has done tremendous amount of polling around this. And you know depending on how you cut the polling about 85 percent of the country falls into the exhausted majority. You know they're sick of the divisions. They’re scared. They're tired of this and they want a way out. So, we are trying to speak to the exhausted majority. You know remind them that there is a way out and that what we're hearing from the various inputs that are coming into us are actually not true. And the truth is we have much more in common than divides us. And that if we listen more, you know and shouted less, we'd be a much stronger country and that this is really dangerous. When you’ve got experts who have studied polarization around the world know that there are three things that happen when you have a hyper-polarized society. One is political gridlock. The second is violence which starts slowly and then goes quickly. And the third is like deep mental health problems because people lose hope. You don't know what to trust anymore. Like you said trust in politics, trust in journalism, trust in medicine, trust in everything, now. You know you just, nothing feels real anymore. Everything feels slippery. So again. total David and Goliath fight, but we just want to shake people on the shoulders and remind them this is what's real, this is what's important. And it's extraordinary to see what's happening in these One Small Step interviews. And everyone ends the same. People say, at the end of these interviews, people are scared going in, it takes courage, but you're with a stranger at the end. Everyone, it almost belies belief. Let's have dinner. I want to exchange e-mails. Let's take a walk together. There's just a sense of relief when you realize that this person who you thought you should hate is just a person, just like you.
Patrick Center: You have certain techniques with StoryCorps. You have a list of questions to kind of breakthrough.
Dave Isay: Yeah.
Patrick Center: So, when we're talking about a society that's being manipulated by a group who we don't trust very much. How do we begin to have those conversations? If I want to have this with my friends and my neighbors, what are the techniques? Walk me through some of this.
Dave Isay: Sure. What we do with One Small Step is purposefully not talk about politics. We haven't done this without the kind of very strict parameters of what happens in a One Small Step interview. One Small Step is built on one of the most studied theories in the history of psychology called contact theory, which was developed in the 1950s by a psychologist named Gordon Alport. And it says under very specific conditions, if you put two people together who think they're enemies and have them have a visceral experience with each other, at the end of that experience, that hate can melt away. In kind of the non-controlled experience of a One Small Step conversation, you're risking it. But it's worth it. And I think that the trick is to talk to people and listen to people you may not agree with. Again, we call it One Small Step because we don't talk about politics. Don't talk about politics. Talk about what matters to you. Ask questions. Listen. And, you know, don't take the bait. Whatever you do, like don't yell and just listen. This goes back to the origins of StoryCorps. People just want to be heard. They just want to be heard. They just want to be respected, and they just want to be treated with dignity. And you're 90% of the way there if you do that. So do get out of your bubble and sit with people. Again, we are not equipped to have people talk about politics. But just getting to know someone who's different than you, every time you're going to realize that your preconceived notions were wrong. And it doesn't have to be just across the political divides. There are many other situations where you kind of prejudge people. Could be around religion or whatever it is. And you just talk to them, and you realize, this guy could be my dad.
Patrick Center: You and I are roughly the same age. We grew up in households where you didn't talk about your money, you didn't talk about religion, and you didn't discuss politics. That's true. It's kind of like the standard.
Dave Isay: Yeah.
Patrick Center: What's happened to us?
Isay: Yeah. I was hearing someone say that, you know, now you reconnect with someone from high school and like it's 100% about politics, you know, and you never talked about that. And again, this is being driven by social media, you know, and not only is it, are we talking about politics, but both sides pick very obscure outlier, you know, issues and people and that becomes what the kind of obsession that everybody focuses on. What StoryCorps does, I hope, is shakes us on the shoulder and reminds us what's important? And what's important are our families. You know the people we love. The politics stuff is often small talk and it's easy. You get brain chemicals like released when you have rage and fury and anger. But just try talking about your lives. Who was kindest to you in your life? How do you want to be remembered? Who is your dad? That sort of stuff and see what happens. It's going to surprise you.
Patrick Center: How do you become a better listener?
Dave Isay: We've all got it in us and none of us are perfect at it. I'm a terrible listener. You know and I'm supposed to be the listening. All of us are terrible listeners sometimes and all of us are good listeners sometimes. I mean I think what it is just being focused on the person who's talking to you, not interrupting them. And some of the undergirding ideas of StoryCorps and public media like none of us are the worst things we've ever done. Assume the best in others and just be open and incredible things are going to happen.
Patrick Center: Dave Isay founder of Story Corps’ One Small Step. It's not just a moonshot. You're going to make it happen, Dave.
Dave Isay: Thank you.