A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
Let's hear from a former Ukrainian official with extensive experience negotiating on behalf of the country. Dmytro Kuleba was foreign minister for Ukraine from 2020 to 2024. Today, he's a senior fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School's Belfer Center. Minister, Russia and Ukraine agreed, at least in principle, to a large-scale prisoner exchange as part of these talks. They've done that before. Were you hoping for more progress to be made with these talks?
DMYTRO KULEBA: No, I didn't. And I actually have to say that prisoner swaps should be taking place outside of the scope of political negotiations as a part of regular humanitarian effort. But I don't see any driver behind Russia's position that has changed recently in the trajectory of genuine negotiations in good faith.
MARTÍNEZ: So as far as making progress toward ending the war, these prisoner exchanges to you means nothing?
KULEBA: Well, prisoners exchange means the world to every Ukrainian because our people are coming back home to their family from Russian prisons, where they're subjected to torture and disregarding treatment. So it's a big deal. But it has zero impact on the progress on the political track towards ending the conflict.
MARTÍNEZ: When it comes to Europe's role in these talks, we know that Vladimir Putin does not want Europe involved. And the U.S. has said that NATO allies are essential to a lasting peace. Is there a way for U.S. envoys to persuade Russia, to persuade Vladimir Putin to accept European involvement in these talks?
KULEBA: Having Europeans at the table costs nothing to Russia, but it will try to sell their presence at the highest price possible. This is their negotiating strategy. It just doesn't make sense to negotiate without Europe because the solution, the possible outcome of these negotiations will only hold if Ukraine and the rest of Europe agree to it and sign up. If Europe doesn't sign up, no agreement will be possible because this war is happening in Europe. It's essentially a European war with global impact.
MARTÍNEZ: If European presence in these talks doesn't cost Russia anything, why doesn't the U.S. basically just hold Vladimir Putin's hands to the fire on this and insist on them being there?
KULEBA: Could you give me one example from the last two years when the United States held President Putin's arms to the fire?
MARTÍNEZ: No.
KULEBA: That's not the way this administration treats President Putin. They actually more kind of care for his hands than want to cause harm to them.
MARTÍNEZ: So if you know that, minister - and obviously, Vladimir Putin probably knows that - then what are the chances that any progress can be made? All he has to do is just continue to hold the line.
KULEBA: Well, that's exactly what he has been doing for the last two years. And this is what I believe, regrettably, he will continue to do in the coming years. He just needs to continue engaging with his - engage the United States, court President Trump in a way that will give him enough of a reason to believe that an agreement is possible, and that Putin is seeking an agreement but just needs to be accommodated on one or two more points.
MARTÍNEZ: Do you think that Democratic control of the new Congress, the upcoming Congress, will somehow alter the course of these talks or maybe the future of U.S. support for Ukraine?
KULEBA: Well, foreign policy, especially in negotiations with foreign leaders, stays firmly in the hands of the president of the United States of America. So, yes, of course I expect a reinvigorated role of Congress on the Ukrainian file. But I believe President Trump will continue his policies.
MARTÍNEZ: Dmytro Kuleba served as Ukraine's foreign minister from 2020 to 2024. He's now at the Harvard Kennedy School's Belfer Center. Minister, thank you very much for your time.
KULEBA: Thank you.
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